As seen from Act 1 Scene 3, the Nurse has a bawdy and earthy view of sex. She's not romantic at all. Quoting her late husband talking about Juliet:
'Yea,' quoth he, 'dost thou fall upon thy face?
Thou wilt fall backward when thou hast more wit;
It would be interesting to compare what you've written to other plays. Shakespeare frequently compares different types of relationships to commerce -- the Merchant of Venice is the most obvious example.
Thanks William! Very true that Nurse's statements are consistently, almost invariably sexual. As for comparisons, I've wondered about a pt2 to do exactly that. For instance, in Love's Labor's Lost, the men also pay go-betweens, but the women, unlike Juliet, say "we cannot be bought."
Are you subscribed? If not, please consider it - would love to have you as a reader.
Don't forget the "Bad Dad" trope that he repeats across stories...
MoV is a whole other can of worms, where I read/feel Will plays a bed trick on us. In that story - who wins, who loses?
One question always helps me with Will - Who is written to lie to whom and to themselves?
This essay suggests Romeo is lying to others and himself: he's in "love." No he's not...just hormonal, lust again...after getting jilted, we mite add...
My take on the play: Romeo had infatuation on Juliet, who was ‘forbidden fruit’ being from enemy family. This lifted his lust to wanting sex at all cost. Bribed her Caretaker to get access to her room but wasn’t paying Nurse as Madam of Juliet. Sex was so good and tender that Romeo got in love suddenly. This newly found love between two teenagers ended in tragedy …
He married her! In the Cathedral at the high altar in a society where 13 year old girls were married off for alliances. As it was the high altar in the Cathedral this was not a temporary union.
Actually, they don't marry in a church. They marry in Friar Laurence's "cell," a detail repeated several times. And most women married in their 20s, not their teens
'These violent delights have violent ends' Everyone overlooks the darker aspects of this play in favour of the sentimental simplistic reading. To question love is almost blasphemous since it functions as a semi-transcendent justification for numerous questionable actions.
All that said and done, what are we to make of Juliet's tumble? And what of Shakespeare's judgement that only their fatal marriage could end the feud? Is this all simply paradoxical reality?
At the time he was making the purchases, he had not come to the balcony scene yet. In that scene he starts with "But soft what light through yonder window breaks." goes on to talk about Juliet be not the maid of the moon, whose vestal livery is but sick and green, so cast it off. Afterword's, he goes "It is my lady?, It is my love!".
He had no idea he was in love with her. It was a shock, it woke him up, to his true feelings. This was something new and unknown to him, when he placed his bets or money as it were.
So Yes, at the time he paid the money out, he was into trafficking Juliet, once he realized what made him jump over the fence, into certain death, if caught, he became someone else, namely a lover, a person in love, the transcendent truth that he then realized, scrubs the petty and immorality of earlier off the scene, he is indeed born again.
Thanks, Michael. No, he meets with and pays the Nurse the next day. True, he calls her his "love" many times. That said, there are in my view many reasons to question his perspective, including the fact that no other character endorses their love
Who else knew of it? None of Juliet's family and none of Romeo's. The Friar comes nearest, but his is more of a religious nature, trying to keep them within the bounds of doctrine, ceremony, and social morality. Can not think of any who actually knew of their love. Not Mercutio, or Tybalt. You have me there, will have to reread. Which is always a pleasure with Shakespeare.
Thanks for the engagement. In Shakespeare's source, several characters endorse the couple's love, including the narrator and the Friar. Shakespeare might have done the same. Instead, the Chorus and the Friar both criticize or deride their love. Similarly, while Mercutio might not ever hear specifically about Juliet, he comments implicitly on Romeo's new love by suggesting Romeo is just after sex, etc.
Agree entirely on your view of Mercutio, then again, Romeo didn’t quite have the time to inform him.
Would take the Chorus to be the social standards of the day, what people thought should be, but like all such groups, not exactly gossips, they also did not know.
Totally agree with you on the Friar, as had indicated.
My take, is that that night , in the garden, on the balcony, changed who Romeo was. As if turning from a teenage Mr. Hyde to a lover named Dr. Jekyll.
Will agree before then he was a trafficker, people do change, and love will do it. My optimism coming out.
Remember, Rome is written to kill 2 guys and get his BFF killed, by "accident." In Will's stories, like life, there is what people say and what they do...
Am not sure killing the Count Paris, under the situation in which they met in the last act counts, at least not as premeditated. Tybalt, well, things were not meant to go that way. Perhaps a man so in love could overcome his hatred and try to be friends with Tybalt, like many a good intention, it did not lead to anything good.
Romeo is either 14 or 15, an age a good friend of mine called a state of addled essence, not adolescence. Things were far to fluid at those ages, nothing had jelled, yet, into something more solid and adult, that is also part of the tragedy.
She's being married off at 13 though, by her parents. The play takes place not in Shakespeare's time, but before. He is arranging a secret marriage, not a one night stand.
Excuse me... the Nurse is not some senile old lady... just 10 years ago she was weaning Juliet from *her* breast, and had got her position as Juliet's wetnurse because she had just given birth to and lost a child. She and Lady Capule are about the same age. And Lady C may be lustful (how she talks about Paris) but she's clearly not senile.
You're right that if you simply do the arithmetic she's not very old, and I may indeed be going too far in suggesting she's senile. That said, there's real ambiguity, because she's repeatedly called "old" and even "ancient." Mercutio calls her an "ancient lady." Juliet calls her "old" when she says "old folks, many feign as they were dead." She calls herself "old" in 3.2. In addition, she behaves old, complaining about her "aching bones" and even saying she could "catch" her "death" running about for Juliet. There's a similar ambiguity about Lady Capulet.
To me, R&J is about hate-blood feuding and it's consequences. These are gangbangers who die by the sword and resonates with street/political violence and drug cartels still. *
Guys hurting themselves and others is what Will is the best at...
*Remember how many of Will's fellow authors died violently or killed someone! Start will Marlowe....YIKES!
To me, it is hard to find real close readings of S-speare, so I appreciate these efforts.
It's a longer discussion, but, again to me, overall "love" in Will's texts are problematic. (Phoenix and the Turtle is amazing.) I am a much bigger fan of Marlowe and Barnfield.
Will's Sonnets say, for example, "Desire is death." Really!? We can make ad hominem guesses and look at S-speare's own marriage and him living pretty rootless and alone in London. Companionate "love"/tenderness/fondness and caring...NOT Will's strong suit. Lust, violence, being horney...he knocks it out of the park... My guess is Will never was really in love or perhaps loved by someone - lust, sure.
I love the play but, to me, Romeo is a typical 2D "All the Young Dudes" character. He has little depth and is written to act like a dope. (Like most of Will's guy characters. I would never want to hang out with any of Will's guy characters they are all a thraet to themselves and everyone around them.
Somehow the sappy, "Hallmark" readings of S-speare dominate USA culture and are the emotional equivalent of junk food. So essays and work like this are much needed.
Finally, a "love' stony where the main characters all end up dead in a pool of their own blood and vomit - huh? "World's greatest love story" Really!?
Juliette however, like all of Will's women, is luminous and given amazing lines. I am a dedicated student of this and Will's other works and would recommend - The Tragedie of Romeo and Juliet: A Frankly Annotated First Folio Edition A Frankly Annotated First Folio Edition - Shakespeare, William, Papadinis, Demitra, McFarland (Makes me remember Prince's early (modern) song - Dirty Mind....lol
Thanks for your thoughts. No worries if you're unpersuaded. Yes, Mercutio is mocking Romeo, and in a subsequent series of essays I'll show he's 100% vindicated
As seen from Act 1 Scene 3, the Nurse has a bawdy and earthy view of sex. She's not romantic at all. Quoting her late husband talking about Juliet:
'Yea,' quoth he, 'dost thou fall upon thy face?
Thou wilt fall backward when thou hast more wit;
It would be interesting to compare what you've written to other plays. Shakespeare frequently compares different types of relationships to commerce -- the Merchant of Venice is the most obvious example.
Thanks William! Very true that Nurse's statements are consistently, almost invariably sexual. As for comparisons, I've wondered about a pt2 to do exactly that. For instance, in Love's Labor's Lost, the men also pay go-betweens, but the women, unlike Juliet, say "we cannot be bought."
Are you subscribed? If not, please consider it - would love to have you as a reader.
Don't forget the "Bad Dad" trope that he repeats across stories...
MoV is a whole other can of worms, where I read/feel Will plays a bed trick on us. In that story - who wins, who loses?
One question always helps me with Will - Who is written to lie to whom and to themselves?
This essay suggests Romeo is lying to others and himself: he's in "love." No he's not...just hormonal, lust again...after getting jilted, we mite add...
My take on the play: Romeo had infatuation on Juliet, who was ‘forbidden fruit’ being from enemy family. This lifted his lust to wanting sex at all cost. Bribed her Caretaker to get access to her room but wasn’t paying Nurse as Madam of Juliet. Sex was so good and tender that Romeo got in love suddenly. This newly found love between two teenagers ended in tragedy …
Thanks Noel. Lust, infatuation, sex at any cost - yes indeed
He married her! In the Cathedral at the high altar in a society where 13 year old girls were married off for alliances. As it was the high altar in the Cathedral this was not a temporary union.
Actually, they don't marry in a church. They marry in Friar Laurence's "cell," a detail repeated several times. And most women married in their 20s, not their teens
Lady C says she was Juliet's mother about the same age Juliet now is. An how old was Katherine of Argon when she was married to Arthur?
If interested, I address this question and back up my claim about normative marital ages here: https://johnmcgee.substack.com/p/shakespeare-makes-juliet-much-younger
'These violent delights have violent ends' Everyone overlooks the darker aspects of this play in favour of the sentimental simplistic reading. To question love is almost blasphemous since it functions as a semi-transcendent justification for numerous questionable actions.
Hahaha! Indeed. Thank you for the comment, Cartman's Dad
FRIAR LAWRENCE says this as a warning about poor choices: These violent delights have violent ends
And in their triumph die, like fire and powder,
Which as they kiss consume. The sweetest honey
Is loathsome in his own deliciousness
And in the taste confounds the appetite.
Therefore love moderately; long love doth so;
Too swift arrives as tardy as too slow.”
― William Shakespeare, Romeo and Juliet
Yes indeed. No argument there. Their love meets a violent end, therefore is a "violent delight," ie. the antithesis of love
All that said and done, what are we to make of Juliet's tumble? And what of Shakespeare's judgement that only their fatal marriage could end the feud? Is this all simply paradoxical reality?
Pretty much. In a forthcoming post, I'll argue the cessation of the feud is ironic since everyone's dead! Thanks for the engagement Joe.
Not just dead but bodies left in pools of their own blood and vomit....lol....
At the time he was making the purchases, he had not come to the balcony scene yet. In that scene he starts with "But soft what light through yonder window breaks." goes on to talk about Juliet be not the maid of the moon, whose vestal livery is but sick and green, so cast it off. Afterword's, he goes "It is my lady?, It is my love!".
He had no idea he was in love with her. It was a shock, it woke him up, to his true feelings. This was something new and unknown to him, when he placed his bets or money as it were.
So Yes, at the time he paid the money out, he was into trafficking Juliet, once he realized what made him jump over the fence, into certain death, if caught, he became someone else, namely a lover, a person in love, the transcendent truth that he then realized, scrubs the petty and immorality of earlier off the scene, he is indeed born again.
Thanks, Michael. No, he meets with and pays the Nurse the next day. True, he calls her his "love" many times. That said, there are in my view many reasons to question his perspective, including the fact that no other character endorses their love
Who else knew of it? None of Juliet's family and none of Romeo's. The Friar comes nearest, but his is more of a religious nature, trying to keep them within the bounds of doctrine, ceremony, and social morality. Can not think of any who actually knew of their love. Not Mercutio, or Tybalt. You have me there, will have to reread. Which is always a pleasure with Shakespeare.
Thanks for the engagement. In Shakespeare's source, several characters endorse the couple's love, including the narrator and the Friar. Shakespeare might have done the same. Instead, the Chorus and the Friar both criticize or deride their love. Similarly, while Mercutio might not ever hear specifically about Juliet, he comments implicitly on Romeo's new love by suggesting Romeo is just after sex, etc.
Agree entirely on your view of Mercutio, then again, Romeo didn’t quite have the time to inform him.
Would take the Chorus to be the social standards of the day, what people thought should be, but like all such groups, not exactly gossips, they also did not know.
Totally agree with you on the Friar, as had indicated.
My take, is that that night , in the garden, on the balcony, changed who Romeo was. As if turning from a teenage Mr. Hyde to a lover named Dr. Jekyll.
Will agree before then he was a trafficker, people do change, and love will do it. My optimism coming out.
Remember, Rome is written to kill 2 guys and get his BFF killed, by "accident." In Will's stories, like life, there is what people say and what they do...
Am not sure killing the Count Paris, under the situation in which they met in the last act counts, at least not as premeditated. Tybalt, well, things were not meant to go that way. Perhaps a man so in love could overcome his hatred and try to be friends with Tybalt, like many a good intention, it did not lead to anything good.
Romeo is either 14 or 15, an age a good friend of mine called a state of addled essence, not adolescence. Things were far to fluid at those ages, nothing had jelled, yet, into something more solid and adult, that is also part of the tragedy.
Juliet is 13? Usually, she's played by a woman older than that...
She is indeed. Written about that here: https://johnmcgee.substack.com/p/shakespeare-makes-juliet-much-younger
She's being married off at 13 though, by her parents. The play takes place not in Shakespeare's time, but before. He is arranging a secret marriage, not a one night stand.
Excuse me... the Nurse is not some senile old lady... just 10 years ago she was weaning Juliet from *her* breast, and had got her position as Juliet's wetnurse because she had just given birth to and lost a child. She and Lady Capule are about the same age. And Lady C may be lustful (how she talks about Paris) but she's clearly not senile.
You're right that if you simply do the arithmetic she's not very old, and I may indeed be going too far in suggesting she's senile. That said, there's real ambiguity, because she's repeatedly called "old" and even "ancient." Mercutio calls her an "ancient lady." Juliet calls her "old" when she says "old folks, many feign as they were dead." She calls herself "old" in 3.2. In addition, she behaves old, complaining about her "aching bones" and even saying she could "catch" her "death" running about for Juliet. There's a similar ambiguity about Lady Capulet.
To me, R&J is about hate-blood feuding and it's consequences. These are gangbangers who die by the sword and resonates with street/political violence and drug cartels still. *
Guys hurting themselves and others is what Will is the best at...
*Remember how many of Will's fellow authors died violently or killed someone! Start will Marlowe....YIKES!
To me, it is hard to find real close readings of S-speare, so I appreciate these efforts.
It's a longer discussion, but, again to me, overall "love" in Will's texts are problematic. (Phoenix and the Turtle is amazing.) I am a much bigger fan of Marlowe and Barnfield.
Will's Sonnets say, for example, "Desire is death." Really!? We can make ad hominem guesses and look at S-speare's own marriage and him living pretty rootless and alone in London. Companionate "love"/tenderness/fondness and caring...NOT Will's strong suit. Lust, violence, being horney...he knocks it out of the park... My guess is Will never was really in love or perhaps loved by someone - lust, sure.
I love the play but, to me, Romeo is a typical 2D "All the Young Dudes" character. He has little depth and is written to act like a dope. (Like most of Will's guy characters. I would never want to hang out with any of Will's guy characters they are all a thraet to themselves and everyone around them.
Somehow the sappy, "Hallmark" readings of S-speare dominate USA culture and are the emotional equivalent of junk food. So essays and work like this are much needed.
Finally, a "love' stony where the main characters all end up dead in a pool of their own blood and vomit - huh? "World's greatest love story" Really!?
Juliette however, like all of Will's women, is luminous and given amazing lines. I am a dedicated student of this and Will's other works and would recommend - The Tragedie of Romeo and Juliet: A Frankly Annotated First Folio Edition A Frankly Annotated First Folio Edition - Shakespeare, William, Papadinis, Demitra, McFarland (Makes me remember Prince's early (modern) song - Dirty Mind....lol
Thanks for your thoughts. No worries if you're unpersuaded. Yes, Mercutio is mocking Romeo, and in a subsequent series of essays I'll show he's 100% vindicated